This week, incumbent Democrat Gov. Kathy Hochul and her Republican challenger, Rep. Lee Zeldin, squared for the first and likely only time in a televised gubernatorial debate hosted by Spectrum News NY1.
Moderators Errol Louis and Susan Arbetter of Spectrum News' "Capital Tonight" weighed in on the highlights of the showdown, including the candidates' extremely different policy views in a race that is tighter than many people anticipated.
Hochul and Zeldin sparred over issues such as abortion, crime, and pay-to-play allegations. Errol and Susan break it all down and offer their insights.
In case you missed it, you can listen to the entire debate immediately after their discussion.
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NY1’s Errol Louis has been interviewing powerful politicians and cultural icons for years, but it’s when the TV cameras are turned off that things really get interesting. From career highlights, to personal moments, to stories that have never been told, join Errol each week for intimate conversations with the people who are shaping the future of New York and beyond. Listen to "You Decide with Errol Louis" every Wednesday, wherever you listen to podcasts.
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Note: Below is a full transcript of the episode. The following is a transcription from a third-party service. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases, it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.
Errol Louis: Welcome to You Decide. I'm Errol Louis. We are recording a day after the Spectrum News first and only debate in the race for governor of New York between the incumbent Democrat Kathy Hochul, and her challenger, Republican Lee Zeldin. I was a moderator, along with Susan Arbetter, the host of Capital Tonight. Hi, Susan.
Susan Arbetter: We have to stop meeting like this, Errol.
Errol Louis: We've done other debates. We've got more to come. But this was the big one. I have to say, this is actually, I think this is the biggest debate I've ever…
Susan Arbetter: It's definitely the biggest debate I've actually moderated.
Errol Louis: … actually moderated. I've been on panels before, including for the presidential, in the primary back in 2016. I've been on gubernatorial panels, too, but never as like, you know, no, the co-pilot.
Susan Arbetter: This was a big deal, especially because the poll numbers say that they're getting pretty close.
Errol Louis: Yes, indeed. That was one level of drama that attached to the debate. The other is the fact that Lee Zeldin wanted what he wanted, fIve debates, which was not a bad idea, actually, but...
Susan Arbetter: I'm not sure if he wanted three or five, it's some odd number, but we definitely needed, I think there needs to be another debate. I'm glad that we got one. That we got one. But for the purposes of, you know, voting, we missed a lot of topics. We didn't get to climate change, we didn't get to education, we didn't get to mental health. You know, there's a lot of things that we left on the table.
Errol Louis: Well, you know, at one point, Lee Zeldin said, because we actually went over our 60-minute limit and we're going to play the entirety of the debate. But Lee Zeldin said, ‘Hey, I could stay for another hour.’ And I was like, ‘Yes, sure. Yeah, me too.’ You know, but you know, ideally, I guess you would have one in the North Country and one in the Southern Tier and one in western New York. I mean, because there really are some different local...
Susan Arbetter: Very much so.
Errol Louis: Questions that are out there. And of course, you know, look, the time constraint meant, among other things, we couldn't ask those detailed regional questions. It also meant we couldn't really do as many follow ups. I mean, for our listeners, they should know that Susan Arbetter is a very hyper-prepared person. I mean, I, I try and put my questions together. We go to the first meeting and like, you know, Susan's got like, you know, eight questions, each with three follow-ups, you know, that kind of a thing.
Susan Arbetter: It was a little painful not to be able to ask them all.
Errol Louis: Yeah. Because what we do, which is what moderators are supposed to do, is you try and think through like, what's the important question? How do I frame the question? And then after hearing the first response, there's only, you know, you do like a little decision tree. If they say this, then I'd like to follow up and clarify with that. If they say this thing over here, then maybe I'll follow up. But, you know, and it turns into a conversation. But, you know, when the producer is in your ear saying.
Susan Arbetter: Move on to the next topic.
Errol Louis: Move on to the next topic, you know, 10 minutes for the economy, 10 minutes for crime and public safety, you know, five minutes for economic development. It's it's you know, it's...
Susan Arbetter: We're not, we're not in charge of those timings that the moderators, it's the producers who determine how long each of those topics go. That should be understood.
Errol Louis: Well, in the planning meeting, I think we all weighed in on it. You know, if we'd said, like, you know, I mean, we did, you know, we move some things around, we bump some things up. And then, of course, you know, let's not forget the candidates themselves. This is their pleasure cruise. If they want to go somewhere altogether different or sink the ship.
Susan Arbetter: They should take us there.
Errol Louis: That's right. Including to the bottom of the sea. I mean, if they decide to fight about a topic that we either weren't going to ask about or don't care about, it's their debate.
Susan Arbetter: Absolutely. And they you know, they did do some freelancing. You know, they did sort of, you know, go at each other just enough, I thought, to make it interesting. But they didn't, it was, it was a fiery debate, but it was in control, which I was very, very happy with.
Errol Louis: Yes. And some of the things that they were arguing about were legitimate differences of perspective, not so much about traditional, I think, political categories. But, you know, on the question of crime, for example. Let’s take everybody at their word. I think Governor Hochul truly believes that the best and first and most highly-prioritized strategy to deal with the criminal violence in New York state is to stop the flood of illegal guns. Yeah, I mean, she just says it over and over and over again, not because it's a Democratic talking point. She's got all the power in the state. I mean, the governor of New York is a very powerful position.
Susan Arbetter: Oh, absolutely.
Errol Louis: And she has decided that interdicting guns is the way to go.
Susan Arbetter: She talked a lot about guns. Do you want to listen to one of those clips now?
Kathy Hochul: First of all, you can either work on keeping people scared, or you can focus on keeping them safe. I have worked hard to have real policies that are making a difference. And as you mentioned, that data is still being collected. But I did focus on bail reform in our budget. That's why the budget was nine days late, because I insist on common-sense changes. But there is no crime-fighting plan if it doesn't include guns, illegal guns, and you refuse to talk about how we can do so much more. You didn't even show up for votes in Washington, when a bipartisan group of enlightened legislators voted for an assault weapon ban, I mean, we lost another child and a teacher yesterday in St. Louis because people will not support what I was able to get done here in New York, and that is a ban on assault weapons for teenagers. You can't even do that. It's quite extraordinary. But it's about getting the guns off the street. That's the first start. We have more to do. But I'm the one to do it.
Errol Louis: Did you want to respond? Yes.
Lee Zeldin: Of course. Unfortunately, Kathy Hochul believes that the only crimes that are being committed are these crimes with guns. And you got people who are afraid of being pushed in front of oncoming subway cars. They're being stabbed, beaten to death on the street with hammers. Go talk to the Asian American community and how it impacted them with the loss of lives. Jewish people targeted with wrong, violent anti-Semitism on our streets. It just happened yet again. We need to be talking about all of these other crimes. But instead, Kathy Hochul is too busy patting herself on the back. Job well done. No, actually, right now there should be a special session. The state legislature should come back and they should overhaul cashless bail and these other pro-criminal laws with zero tolerance. But they're saying, elect me. She says, elect me, and then you'll find out where maybe I'll stand on this issue in January.
Errol Louis: Very interesting. Now, I mean, look, the heat and the passion was real, I think, on both sides.
Susan Arbetter: Oh, yeah.
Errol Louis: And they just see this. I think they just see this very differently.
Susan Arbetter: They absolutely do. And first of all, I'd like to take the class that politicians take that allows them to just keep talking without using a period or a semicolon or a comma. That's such a remarkable talent.
Errol Louis: It's, it's breath control.
Susan Arbetter: It's really I mean, I don't have that skill, but, yeah, they both believe what they say. And I agree with you 100% that Hochul thinks she is doing the right thing. I believe that Zeldin truly believes that crime has gotten worse in New York City. And I think anecdotally, anecdotally, there are many people and many stories that would support that. But you have the statistics and you also mentioned the DCJS comments, which are, number one, we don't have enough data yet to make those sweeping claims that the bail reform laws have not worked.
Errol Louis: You know, it's interesting because, and we're giving you just a little highlights. You can listen for yourself in a few minutes, you can hear the debate in its entirety, but the Division of Criminal Justice Services, a, not just a statistics agency for the state. I mean, they run the DNA database. You know, they run a lot of really, the sexual assault offenders database. I mean, they, they keep track of some really important stuff in the state, and they crunch the numbers. And they said, well, look, before we had bail reform, about 19% of people arrested who are out on bail would have committed another offense. And then after bail reform, it went up to a shocking 20%, meaning basically no change. And, you know, I mean, my, my real question for Lee Zeldin was, you know, does this make any difference to you? You know, because he's acting like we've got to suspend the laws and we've got to do this and we've got to do that. And it's like, well, do you really have a basis for drawing those conclusions?
Susan Arbetter: There is another cohort of statistics that we didn't mention last night, and those are the FBI crime statistics that came out, I think two weeks ago. And, you know, when you look at those statistics, Errol, from 20 years ago, crime has fallen, index crime. Those are the biggies, the murders, the assaults, the burglaries, the rapes. Index crimes have fallen in New York state by something like 40%. I mean, it was remarkable how much lower crime is. If you look at the same statistics from two years ago, crime has fallen only 0.1%. So what we're really doing is looking at different cohorts of numbers, but the overall picture is crime is not as bad as it was in 2000.
Errol Louis: Well, you know, it is politically impossible to say that in the current atmosphere. I mean.
Susan Arbetter: I think for for Republicans, it may be. And even for Democrats, I mean, Kathy Hochul has pivoted her entire campaign strategy toward crime. So I guess you're right. It is impossible for politicians to say.
Errol Louis: Well, I mean, as she pointed out in the clip that we played, I mean, you know, you you either want to scare people or you want to protect them, right? You can keep them scared or you can keep them safe, I think was some words to that effect.
Susan Arbetter: I thought that was a great line.
Errol Louis: And it is a great line. And it's exactly, I think, where we are. I mean, and then, look, some of this is you and I being, you know, grizzled veterans of New York. I mean, like within New York City, for example. And I think she mentioned this in the course of the debate, it was a little bit smothered, but if you were familiar with the statistics, the shootings are down in New York City. Homicides are down in New York City. And for people like me who have been here for a minute, you know, I'm like, hey, that's great. That's great. Game, set, match, good. Keep the shootings down. Keep the murders down. We can handle everything else, but we cannot have bodies in the street. That's not acceptable right now. I mean, and perhaps we've evolved to a different level where New Yorkers find it completely unacceptable and are ready to, you know, march on the state house with pitchforks and torches if there's a lot more shoplifting.
Susan Arbetter: So you're saying that that New Yorkers are less willing to deal with that, with even these lower numbers?
Errol Louis: I think New Yorkers are saying right now, crime, especially violent crime, it doesn't have to be a body in the street before we hit the panic button. You know, that if people are being, you know, pushed onto the subway tracks, you know, I mean, in the latest case, it's a horrific case, but you know, the guy was just bowled over out of nowhere by an apparently mentally ill person and ends up breaking his collarbone. He falls down on to the track. But he, but there was no train in the station and he didn't die. And so I don't we certainly don't want to define this down to the level where if you lived through it, what's the big deal? But it is a case of us, I think, having to make some really, really hard choices about what we need to focus on. You know, like, I mean, because really behind their dispute is this issue of mental illness.
Susan Arbetter: Yes, absolutely. And the fact that New York state has done a terrible job at parsing mentally ill people versus criminals. And what we have done is close all of the institutions where people with mental illness used to go, which is a good thing. Nobody wants a Willowbrook. At the same time, we were supposed to use the money from those closures to create more community beds, and those beds have not become available. They just haven't appeared. And so we have people who are in need of help, not incarceration, but an actual, you know, they need a doctor. Okay. Sure. Who are not getting anything.
Errol Louis: No. I mean, it's one of these things where in the grand sweep of history, we find ourselves going in circles. I remember when I was in graduate school, there was, it was all the rage. Everybody was reading Foucault, this French philosopher, who pointed out, I mean, and it's it's it happens to be true, historically accurate, that the prison and the asylum started out as one in the same institution. And the poorhouse, by the way, and it's back. So if you were if you were poor, or you had committed a crime, or you were mentally ill, society, Western society in general, American society in particular, would say, look, you all belong in like a cell over here until you've either paid off your debt, you know, or gotten your mind right, or gotten some treatment or paid your debt to society. It was all considered the same. And one sense is us, you know, I don't, I hear in certain arguments, us drifting back into the same mentality, where for a lot of people, you know, something horrible happens, a horrible tragedy. Woman killed, pushed in front of a subway train. This actually happened. The guy's name was Marshall Simon. He can't stand trial because he was stark-raving mad. They caught him a minute after he murdered this poor woman, and he's yelling out, 'Yeah, I did it. Yeah, I did it.' And there was no reason for it. And they give him the first psychological examination. They come back and tell the court, it's like this man can't stand trial. He can't be held responsible for anything. He's out of his mind.
Susan Arbetter: Yeah, they didn't mention Kendra's Law during the debate, as far as I know. And this is the law that would basically force people who do suffer from mental illness to take their medicine, or they are allowed to be incarcerated, not, not in jail, but, you know, put into some sort of facility.
Errol Louis: It's a very, it's a very wonky law, very hard to implement. You've got to have.
Susan Arbetter: But we have it on the books.
Errol Louis: Oh no, we do, we do. And people keep talking about enhancing it or changing. I mean, it's it's so hard to do. It takes months.
Susan Arbetter: You remember D.J. Jaffe?
Errol Louis: Yeah, sure, the late D.J. Jaffe. Yeah. There was an advocate who called all of this out. The book is called ‘Insane Consequences.’ I recommend that everybody read it.
Susan Arbetter: Yeah, it's a very good book and it's about his personal experiences. But yeah, Kendra's Law is something that many Republicans and some Democrats think should be strengthened because of these very issues. At the same time, there are people in the mental health sector who say, no, no, no, we can't be putting people away without their permission. It's a tough conversation.
Errol Louis: Absolutely. Those are separate stories you and I will talk about another time. You know, horror stories of people who have malicious relatives or neighbors portray them as dangerous, and they get hauled off.
Susan Arbetter: It's the same, and the same worry can be attached to a red flag law. Yes. Okay. These are the laws whereby somebody says, ‘My father or my my husband is not non compos mentis, and he shouldn't have a gun and it needs to be taken away, and he's going to do harm to himself or others’. And the police will come, and they'll you'll go to court and the court will take away your guns. However, that also can be abused.
Errol Louis: Yeah, they'll take more than your gun. They'll take your freedom. All kinds of different things could happen. I'll be back in a minute with more with Susan Arbetter.
Errol Louis: There was one question, this issue that Lee Zeldin has promised. He says on day one, I'm going to give a pink slip to the Manhattan district attorney, Alvin Bragg. And, you know, I felt constrained. I mean, I felt, it was required to point out that it really doesn't work that way. It's not nearly that simple, but this is one of his big talking points.
Lee Zeldin: Absolutely. The first thing I'll do right after I'm sworn into office is turning the Manhattan district attorney, Alvin Bragg to let him know that he's being removed. From day one, that he was a district attorney, he said he was not going to enforce all different kinds of laws across the board. Others he treats as lesser offenses. Look what happened to Jose Alba. He gets attacked. He's defending himself. Alvin Bragg, sends him to Rikers Island, slaps him with a murder charge. He had an open stab wound. Alvin Bragg asks for hundreds of thousands of dollars in bail in this case, but doesn't go after the person who stabbed Jose Alba. We reached the point where Jose Alba said that he needed to go back to the Dominican Republic because he didn't feel safe here. Alvin Bragg is not doing his job. A message will absolutely be sent that if you're the D.A., it stands for district attorney, not defense attorney. Alvin Bragg can go be a defense attorney. But if he's not going to do his job, I'm going to do my job, and I'm going to remove him as soon as I can.
Errol Louis: Did you want to respond?
Kathy Hochul: I'd be happy to. I'm not surprised because in Lee Zeldin's world, you overturn elections you don't agree with, you can't throw out someone who is duly elected. Yes, I've worked with all of our district attorneys and given them more power to do their jobs. But for someone who voted to overturn a presidential election, I'm not surprised. He just thinks whatever he wants to do something he can just, you know, undo the will of the people. That's not the democracy we live in, but it's the world that Lee Zeldin does.
Errol Louis: Yeah, that was a deft pivot by the governor. To get back to one of our main talking points, which was that, you know, she wants to associate Lee Zeldin with the horrors of January 6th.
Susan Arbetter: Yeah, she did that. I think she could have done a better job of linking him to January 6th and the fact that he voted not to certify the presidential election. Instead, she focused on the former president sort of in toto, you know, like he's just Donald Trump, Donald Trump, Donald Trump. But there are a lot of people who don't hate Donald Trump, who are watching, who think that it's too much, but they will say what happened on January 6th cannot happen again. And that is a threat to democracy.
Errol Louis :Right, right. Exactly right. And that, and look, when it comes to Alvin Bragg, by the way, first Black elected district attorney in the history of Manhattan, the attacks on him, not just by Lee Zeldin, but by a lot of other people have been talked about, reported on, you know, at great length to the point where I think Alvin Bragg has become almost a, I don't want to say, I mean, he's, he's, well he's become a target. Right.
Susan Arbetter: His name has become shorthand for leniency.
Errol Louis: Right. Exactly.
Susan Arbetter: Which is, I don't know if that's warranted or not.
Errol Louis: No, it's not warranted, I mean, in fact, in the heat of the debate, you don't have time for these things. And you remember when we were doing the prep, I specifically took this out because one of the producers like, don't get into all of that. But the only time, in New York, a district attorney or sheriff, it's the same provisions of the state constitution allows a governor to remove a sheriff or a district attorney they don't want. The closest we've come to that, was in 1932, when the governor at the time, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, removed a corrupt sheriff who was part of the Tammany Hall machine. It was over political corruption. That's the only time it's ever happened.
Susan Arbetter: You never hear about this. I mean, it's only recently that we've heard politicians saying, 'I'm going to remove him. I'm going to remove that guy.' For years, no one, no one mentioned that. I mean, these are duly-elected people. You can't just overturn the will of the people.
Errol Louis: No, that's right. I mean, and as it works in New York, I mean, it's loosely worded because nobody ever anticipated that. People would think that, you know, suddenly you've become empowered to just undo elections at will. So although, the wording of the statute is actually pretty unclear. It would end up in court the day after somebody tried to remove you. You know, and by the way, I mean, I moderated the debate for Manhattan district attorney. Alvin Bragg is being accused of doing exactly what he campaigned on and exactly what, in a very crowded and competitive field...
Susan Arbetter: He was voted.
Errol Louis: The voters decided they wanted to do. They did not want to see people spending a year and a half in jail for shoplifting, right? I mean, that's like, that's just not what people wanted to do. He said he would change it and he did.
Susan Arbetter: I want to pivot to abortion, because the same thing happened with Lee Zeldin. You know, Lee Zeldin has said he, you know, on one hand, he won't change the abortion laws in New York, knowing that 70% or some very high number of of New Yorkers support abortion rights. On the other hand, he's he said, I've spoken to a lot of people who don't like paying for the abortions of people who live many states away. Now, you know, that, it's clear to me that he's going to use that as leverage. New York doesn't pay for the abortions of people who live many states away, but New York does pay for bolstering the abortion, abortion clinics like Planned Parenthood.
Lee Zeldin: A few years back, New York codified far more than Roe. When we woke up the day after the Dobbs decision, the law in New York was exactly the same as it was the day before. And I'm not going to change that. And also, as far as appointments for all state agencies, my litmus test is that they are going to do an exceptional job. I want the best talented person for all agencies. I don't want the State Liquor Authority extorting people or DEC extorting people who are trying to apply for follow-up so they're not wearing a mask when they're answering the door at their restaurant. My litmus test for all state agencies is that they are the best qualified person. Period.
Susan Arbetter: Mr. Zeldin, you have not committed to maintaining state funding for Planned Parenthood. Why not, when, for many women in our state, Planned Parenthood is a trusted service for health care?
Lee Zeldin: Well, what I said was that I'd be working with the legislature, and I'm sure Carl Heastie will come to the table wanting a funding level for whatever his priorities might be across the board on all sorts of different issues. I've heard from New Yorkers who say that they don't want their tax dollars, for example, funding abortions for people who live, you know, 1,500 miles away from here. What's important is the will of the people. And we have to listen to what New Yorkers want. And I've actually heard from a number of people who consider themselves to be pro-choice, who are not happy hearing that their tax dollars are being used to fund abortions many, many, many states away. And listen, that's the priority of my opponent. I get it. But the will of the people that I've heard from, they're not happy about it.
Errol Louis: Interesting. You know, it's kind of, sort of a, an attempt maybe at a wedge issue, you know, saying like even if you're in favor of abortion.
Susan Arbetter: But I don't support abortion for somebody from Iowa.
Errol Louis: Right. What's, what's what's you know, look, for chauvinistic New Yorkers, you know, spending money on non-New Yorkers? Oh, hell no.
Susan Arbetter: But we're not. That that's the whole thing. We're not. The state bolsters funding for clinics that perform abortions, but not directly funding abortions.
Errol Louis: Well, I thought that in the wake of the overturning of Roe versus Wade, the governor made a big show of saying we will create a sort of a protection fund for people who are in states where abortion is now going to be effectively outlawed. We'll help them come here, or something like that. She made some kind of pool of money available for those purposes.
Susan Arbetter: Yeah, I think that there are mostly, in talking to the people from Planned Parenthood, Empire State Act, it sounds like much of the money goes toward, $10 million goes towards protecting and security around abortion providers. And the other money from this $30 million pot goes to ensuring that there are enough abortion providers to provide services to out-of-state people.
Errol Louis: You know, we get so used to these big sums being thrown around, and the governor, you know, during the debate talks about, well, I allocated this amount of money for this and $500 million for that and $30 million for that. And it is stunning, in a way, when you step back and think about it. And then you and I did the comptrollers debate a couple of weeks ago, and we found, among other things, all kinds of huge pots of money, like billions of dollars, that hadn't been spent 10 years after the fact. It's a fundamental problem in New York. I mean, it really is.
Susan Arbetter: The reason why we have pay-to-play is because New York is so wealthy. I was talking to some friends of mine who live in Massachusetts and they say, ‘We don't have these problems.’ And that's because the money isnt there. No, it's not worth it to get into trouble in Massachusetts, but in New York. And that's one of the things I also wanted, I thought it was interesting that, I don't think Hochul did a good enough job talking about pay-to-play.
Errol Louis: Let's hear her own excuse for how and why this all went down.
Kathy Hochul: I don't accept the premise. There is no play-to-play, pay-to-play corruption. We, a year ago, just over a year ago, we had a crisis where my responsibility to protect children and get them back in schools and omicron hit. Remember how terrified we were of omicron? Schools have been shut down a long time. I told my team, you go out and find every single test kit you can find. This was early on, we were hit harder than other states like California, that didn't deal with it ‘til later. I did everything I could, in my power, to get the test kits. I'm glad I did, because we got the children back in school in New York. And they didn't go back in many other places. There has never been a quid pro quo, a policy change or decision made because of a contribution.
Errol Louis: Well, she says it's not happening.
Susan Arbetter: She did. She's basically saying, trust me, there is no pay-to-play, which I don't think is an acceptable answer. But, you know, it's the same with with Zeldin on abortion, he says, trust me, I'm not going to change things.
Errol Louis: I mean, those those test kits, by the way, I mean, New York ended up paying over 12 bucks per test when, you know, you can get it for a little bit less than that if you just go to the local CVS. So it's supposed to be a little bit lower if you're buying in bulk, right?
Susan Arbetter: Yes. And I think that her point is that at the time we were worried about omicron and she was trying to get the tests ASAP. We’ll see.
Errol Louis: Now, something for voters to think about.
Errol Louis: Yes. Now, before we get to the full debate, you can hear the whole thing. I want to help you prepare for the midterms on November 8th. We call this You Decide because we want you to figure this out. We have a voter guide on the Spectrum News app. It is a great resource to use. Before you head to the polls, you can learn all about the candidates who are running for office, their experience, their education, where they stand on the major issues and how to contact them. And you can even plan out your ballot if you want to save time on voting day by, you know, figuring out what the ballot is going to look like, so you're not surprised. There are a bunch of ballot questions, by the way. You have to flip the ballot over. We have some referendum questions this time around. And then beyond the election, the Spectrum News app always has lots of coverage of New York City politics. So, you know, the idea here is get used to looking at it. Download the app. You can get it in the Apple App Store, you can get it on Google Play. I actually do use it, Susan. I find it very helpful.
Susan Arbetter: Oh, I do, too. I do too.
Errol Louis: So thanks very much, Susan. We're going to go do this again. We have the upcoming Chuck Schumer debate.
Susan Arbetter: That's right, Sun Union College.
Errol Louis: You're here in the city with us right now. But I'm going to be traveling up there.
Susan Arbetter: And thank you, by the way.
Errol Louis: Hope you enjoy your a couple of days off. And then we'll be right back at it with a Senate debate coming up soon. Now, back to the episode and the full debate.