Ahead of his European trip this week for meetings with British leadership in London and the heads of North Atlantic Treaty Organization states in Lithuania, President Joe Biden spoke at length about the condition of the alliance, the war in Ukraine and his controversial decision to supply the country with cluster bombs.
The president told CNN’s Fareed Zakaria that he believes Ukraine is not yet ready for membership in NATO amid the war with Russia, arguing the alliance needs a “rational path” for Ukraine to join.
“I don’t think there is unanimity in NATO about whether or not to bring Ukraine into the NATO family now, at this moment in the middle of a war,” Biden told Zakaria in an interview that aired Sunday. “If the war is going on, then we're all in a war.”
Biden said the door will be open for Ukraine to join when the time is right, but there are other issues to be worked out beyond the invasion, including “democratization.” One of the central tenets of NATO membership is an adherence to democratic principles.
In 2022, the anti-corruption nonprofit Transparency International listed Ukraine as the second-most corrupt country in Europe, after Russia, and 116 out of 180 countries worldwide.
And under the martial law he declared on the first day of the invasion, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has the power through the nation’s constitution to suspend parliamentary and presidential elections. He told the Washington Post in May there wouldn’t be any elections until after the war.
He’s also shut down pro-Russian political parties, consolidated the media in his country, and stripped lawmakers of their citizenship.
In an interview with ABC News’ “This Week” on Sunday, Zelenskyy said through a translator that Ukraine’s admission to the alliance would “be an important message to say that NATO is not afraid of Russia” and that in the interim “Ukraine should get clear security guarantees while it is not in NATO.” He said he would be attending this week’s summit in Vilnius, the capital city of Lithuania.
“We are now a country that is respected. A country that is really fighting for human values, for human rights, for freedom, for democracy,” Zelenskyy said. “I assume that Ukraine will be a valued NATO countries’ partner with actually the strongest armed forces in Europe.”
Biden also said in the CNN interview he was optimistic Sweden will be welcomed into the alliance and any objections by Turkey — a NATO member who has held up Sweden’s pending application over their view Sweden is sympathetic to dissidents Turkey considers terrorists — would be resolved. Hungary has also opposed Sweden’s bid. All 31 current members of the alliance must approve new additions.
“Sweden has the same value set that we have in NATO. It’s a small nation but has the capacity to defend itself, as they know how to fight there and I think they should be a member of NATO,” Biden said, adding the U.S. was going to provide military aid to Turkey in a bid to “allow Sweden to come in.”
And he said it was “a very difficult decision” to provide Ukraine with cluster munitions, bombs that deploy dozens of smaller explosives over large areas, as described by the International Committee of the Red Cross.
More than 120 countries have signed onto a treaty banning their use over concerns over civilian casualties and unexploded munitions that could endanger people for decades, according to the activist group the Cluster Munition Coalition.
The United Kingdom, Canada, Germany, Spain, the secretary-general of the United Nations, and other U.S. allies have criticized Biden’s decision.
“We're not signatories to that agreement, but it took me a while to be convinced to do it,” Biden said, conceding the weapons are dangerous to civilians. “But the main thing is they either have the weapons to stop the Russians now, keep them from stopping the Ukrainian offensive through these areas or they don't, and I think they’re needed.”
According to Human Rights Watch, both Ukrainian and Russian forces have used cluster munitions during the war “killing many civilians and causing other serious civilian harm.”
Rep. Barbara Lee, the progressive California Democrat running for Senate, said on CNN on Sunday that Biden was “crossing a line” by providing cluster munitions. Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene, a far-right Republican from Georgia, said it “may be a war crime.” Sens. Jeff Merkley, D-Ore., and Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., wrote in an op-ed the decision “would kill more civilians” and was a “terrible mistake.” Sen. Tim Kaine, D-Va., told Fox News he had “real qualms” about the deal.
Others, including Sen. Lindsay Graham, R-S.C., Sen. Tom Cotton, R-Ark., and House Foreign Affairs Chair Michael McCaul, R-Texas, encouraged and praised the move. McCaul said on Sunday the bombs would be a “game changer.”
“Some weapons we have been provided by our allies help us save lives, and I appreciate that. Of course foot dragging will lead to more lives losses,” Zelenskyy said of waiting on western support to arrive, including F-16 fighter jets promised by European countries.
White House National Security Council spokesperson John Kirby said on ABC News on Sunday training pilots and building the necessary infrastructure for the fighter jets in Ukraine would “take many months,” but that training would begin “very, very soon.”
Part of the reason Biden decided to ship cluster munitions to Ukraine was that their military was running out of 155 mm shells, he said on Sunday. Kirby said Ukraine was using thousands of rounds a day and the U.S. “production rate is still not where we want it to be.”
The cluster bombs the U.S. is sending are 155 mm, the same size as many of the more traditional munitions Ukraine has the capability to fire. As part of the deal, Ukraine promised not to use them within Russian borders.
“We are very mindful of the concerns about civilian casualties and unexploded ordnance being picked up by civilians or children and being hurt,” Kirby said. “Of course, we're mindful of that.”